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Please address your own rules.


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Hi! 

You probably know me as bioswales; the guy who's been an incessant pain in the ass for the last few days.
Whether you dealt with me talking your head off in a sit to the point of wanting to plaster the wall with your own grey matter or just giving condolences after the occasional hit- I'd like to say hi!

I'm not exactly here to say hi though.

Contrary to popular belief I haven't done what I've done because I'm a self-absorbed asshole, but its because it's all well within the posted rules.
In the rules there are a plethora of oversights or shortcomings that exist as well as assumed rules that seem to have no base other than a moral high-ground or opinionated decision making.
If you don't think this is a problem please click your way to another post now, as the rest of this one will be a waste of your time.

With the rest of you here I believe its important to preface by saying I've had my shameless hunts for fun, not necessarily trying to be an inconvenience to others most of the time. Most of them were admittedly harmless or had minimal/negligible impacts on 'roleplay experience', emotion, or quality of the game. However I've easily noticed that the vast majority of my escapades end up in either a staff member consulting me or someone consulting a staff member on me. I've usually been consulted on the basis of one of a few things that aren't listed in the rules (eg. Mayors cannot base, FailRP). While that likely strikes a giggle in a few select staff members who I've given headthrobs regarding the issue every time I've been consulted by staff in one of my lawless ventures I've gotten the same reply in terms of rules that apply to the given situation; without fail.

"Staff members reserve the right to use their best judgement when dealing with infractions not mentioned in the MOTD. Do not question their authority."

I have faith in the belief that those I have seen on the staff team have been entrusted with those positions due to their proven competence, commitment, and their ability to handle a situation. However when all of the sits I attend end with the statement above I can't help but feel not only that invisible rules are being used on the spot, but they're being regularly used. Unfortunately this serves as framework for a biased 'I don't like this, so I don't want this' mentality that gets gradually worse over time depending on the offending staff member/authoritarian. This is especially scary when a lot of the bans I've seen in my short tenure on the server have very often included one of these select hot-phrases which are often use among DarkRP servers but have no official rule basis here on XenoRP.

-NITRP (No intent to RP/No Interest to RP)
-'Mingeing'
-FailRP
-Staff Disrespect (I haven't seen this, but I have seen similar under the guise of 'Racism and Homophobia')
https://forums.xeno.gg/topic/1292-bio-muted-and-then-banned-me/?tab=comments#comment-5451
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image.png.589c578a0fbc4d61f514f7125dd5401d.png

My concern isn't that the people in question were wronged. I have little doubt that to some degree they're responsible for at the minimum a fraction of punishment that they're receiving/have receieved- but rather my concern lies in the fact that staff are able to freely punish persons without having a solid rule that can properly back up the punishments they are dealing; lending to the idea that at any given time a rule that doesn't exist can just as easily be deemed under one of the coined terms above and dismissed with just as much ease. Its better to know exactly why you're banning someone instead of giving a fill-in-the-blank because you're not in the mood to do your job because you didn't want to learn the rules you're enforcing.
 


I'd like to end this by pointing out some exemplary irony of being banned for 1 work week for two rules that according to the !motd don't exist.
image.png.281402879165bb225569abb127272f58.png

 

Edited by bioswales
did a grammar.
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6 hours ago, bioswales said:

oh, that was my post in your Suggestions/Issues tab.
glad you noticed 🙂

Im very interested in the fact that you went out of your way to find trouble on a darkrp gmod server. You joined the server looking to cause problems just to tell someone "ItS nOt In ThE RuLeS" I have spectated alot of sits and never hear anyone using the "Staff members reserve the right to use their best judgement when dealing with infractions not mentioned in the MOTD. Do not question their authority" excuse. The screenshot you posted of someone getting muted is not even remotely relevant because you do not know what fully happened. I was in a call with Bio when this happened and it was not a perma mute or a 1 hour mute, it was a simple 2 or 1 minute mute to have the guy chill out. One may view this as a punishment for "Staff diss" but in reality, if you view that as a hard punishment, than i would hate to see what other punishments are classified as. You framed that image in a sense of this man just got a 4 hour over staff diss.

Addressing the common used ban reasons - They are all common sense.
NITRP - I was on the server 2 days ago and there was a SWAT member who was stun sticking people onto a rooftop for about 20 min. Later went on just to randomly taze people for no reason, and even started building on the streets. This is clear NITRP. Every situation regarding NITRP happens in this manor, players dont play or dick around and get banned. No one else is at fault but themselfs. If you do not know what NITRP then you prolly should not be playing on a server. We do not need guidelines for every little thing on the server. People have brains, they can turn them on and use them every once in a while.

FailRP - This is prolly the most simple one at of them all. You do something your role is not meant to do. Ex - swat raids a base for personal printers, or hitmen place a hit on hobo etc. No explanation there, everyone knows that rule.

Staff disrespect - Out of everything you said in that entire passage I slightly, ever so slightly agree with this one. Some staff handle disrespect in different ways. Some brush it me, others do get offended by it. We do say during orientations and introductions to staffing that disrespect is not punishable. Why? Well its the fucking internet. Now there is a difference between staff diss and harassment, which are often confused. Harassment is causing problems endlessly for someone on the server, and regardless if your a player or staff member, we will step in when harassment takes place. No staff nor player should have to deal with someone or multitude of people shit talking them endlessly on the sever when taking tickets or even just chilling out. So staff diss and harassment are different, but please know the difference.

In conclusion i would like to say that just about everything you stated should be dealt with could have been handled if people just used common sense. We are not making a 98 page MOTD specifying every little thing players can and cannot do at each role, as that is ridiculous. We can all open our thinking caps and put them on for a little bit and understand that "hey maybe what im doing is not specifically said, but i sure know its not allowed". Either way, you came here to start trouble in game, which is enough for many people to get frustrated with working with you.

I am not, and will not get into an argument over this on the forums, feel free to pm me, but i more than likely wont respond to this if you choice to.

(dont know how you viewed this but its not meant as malicious intent, im just simply giving imput and responding. Also pardon any spelling mistakes)

 

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To anyone who looks at his and is interested in how the PM's went, I thought I'd be kind enough to give insight on to how interested he was in seeing my side of the problem and being reasonable when it comes to seeing my point of view.

I apologize if there is a rule against posting DM's but considering I can't find any, I'm happy to post this here.
 

bioswalesToday at 10:32 PM
Hi! I'm forums guy, and I came to consult you in regards to what you said to me earlier.
If you can't tell I'm more than happy to discuss in general, let alone in regard to the discussion on forums.
I don't mean to be an intrusion, but I will preface by saying that in reply don't be surprised if I hunt for a lengthy debate here.

Patrick Star Today at 10:34 PM
I won’t answer nor give attention to someone “hunting for a lengthy debate”

bioswales Today at 10:35 PM
You're the one who said I should speak with you personally in regards to continuing the conversation.

Patrick Star Today at 10:35 PM
Yes. But speaking to and hunting for lengthy debates are 2 different things

bioswales Today at 10:36 PM
Well I wouldn't want to drag you here acting like I'm not ready to talk for a long time. - Not that I want to in the first place.
I was referred to the forums initially to voice my complaints and seeing as they're not wanted there you said you want them here.
Or at the least in a PM.
I'm sure staff have had my name thrown around to some degree or another as some asshole who wants to bend rules to his own whim.

Patrick StarToday at 10:42 PM
I never once said you cannot voice your opinion on the forums. Let’s not twist words around now
I said that I’m not replying to that anymore pm me if you want to discuss this

bioswalesToday at 10:43 PM
My mistake. I've just generally been frustrated because I've been looking for someone to genuinely talk about this with about.

Patrick StarToday at 10:44 PM
Well I’m not going to sit here and activity try and listen to someone who starts off by half insulting the staff team, purposely joins the server to start trouble and then dms me saying you are going to hunting for a lengthy debate
I have a lot better shit to deal with than that
I am willing to listen to someone who has an understanding of what they are talking about and can carry a non argumentative conversation

bioswalesToday at 10:46 PM
You've never seen me once on the server, yes?

Patrick StarToday at 10:46 PM
Idk. I don’t actively go down the player base checking off who I have and have not see

bioswalesToday at 10:50 PM
Thats a no then. I just wanted to ask how you'd know if I purposely joined the server looking to start trouble. Heres what I did. I based as mayor, building a nice house with no fading door defenses (Or defenses at all for that matter) just doing nothing but decorate it I had a few laws that were promptly removed after being told that they were against the rules I sat on a roof as a hitman waiting to kill the mayor only to get kicked off of the roof. Upon my explanation of being on an 'accessible roof' I got told 'What I say goes'.
And then what got me banned is messing around with some donor guy with A in his name
Who decided since he was buddy-buddy with staff to give me a hard time for in-rp protesting what I figured what just something playful at the time.
Thats over the course of about two days.
If you know of anything that staff have told you I'll be happy to address it to what I saw of the situation.

Patrick StarToday at 10:53 PM
lemme just qoute a few things here. "ou probably know me as bioswales; the guy who's been an incessant pain in the ass for the last few days." "I haven't done what I've done because I'm a self-absorbed asshole, but its because it's all well within the posted rules."
that is joining to start trouble
you know what, im gonna just go ahead and end this convo, mainly because i think its in my best interest to end it. I forsee problems in the future and am going to take the steps needs to stop it.

bioswalesToday at 10:53 PM
I apologize if this sounds like someone who got on the server with the clean intent of giving staff a hard time, but to me its just been a biproduct of me wanting to enjoy my time on the server. If I really had no desire to stay on I'd be banned for mass RDM a few days ago. And to act like I haven't --

Thank you for ending this conversation the (same way the) last 4 staff members have.

Patrick StarToday at 10:56 PM
Ill just tell you that the rule states what the staff say goes. They are doing it for the benifit of the people. Bye bye now

bioswalesToday at 10:57 PM
Thank you for ending this conversation the (same way the) last 4 staff members have.

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Hopefully my poste clears up a little bit for you, if you have further questions. Feel free to reply to this thread.

As a member of the Civil protection team, the mayor may not base. Most people make this logical connection, however those who don't can be made informed by the staff members. I do agree this should be more clear, as not everyone knows the mayor counts as a civil protector. It will be cleared up in the next motd revision. 

"You probably know me as bioswales; the guy who's been an incessant pain in the ass for the last few days."

-- Being a pain in the ass is nothing to be proud of, furthermore bragging about it and defining yourself as such really doesn't paint yourself as someone we want to be a part of the community. I think it's reasonable that staff members don't want to deal with you if you intentionally conduct yourself in this way.

"Contrary to popular belief I haven't done what I've done because I'm a self-absorbed asshole, but its because it's all well within the posted rules.
In the rules there are a plethora of oversights or shortcomings that exist as well as assumed rules that seem to have no base other than a moral high-ground or opinionated decision making."

-- From experience people who describe their playstyle as " all well within the posted rules." are not on the server to roleplay. Typically these kind of people are here to nitpick and abuse the rules to be dreadful for staff members to deal with, and disruptive and obnoxious to other players. Again, this isn't  someone we want to be a part of the community. 

-- To extend from that, if you have specific issues with rule you think should be more clear, or you think are imperative and must be added. Please feel free to made a forums thread and add those suggestions their. Keep in mind, we will not add every possible scenario to the motd, or be painfully specific. It's not feasible, and simply not our goal.

-- As far as the "Staff members reserve the right to use their best judgement when dealing with infractions not mentioned in the MOTD. Do not question their authority", this statement is added to cover the above mentioned, ultra specific rules, edge cases, or things that are not in the motd that are disruptive, out of roleplay, or simply not supposed to be happening. Typically these rules are often enforced with gentle reminders, verbal warnings, etc, and obviously will be escalated if the player decides to continue disobeying the moderator in question.

 

Lastly you mentioned that people we being punished for breaking rules not in the motd. These specific tags or titles of these might not be fully defined in the motd, however the concepts are pretty universal, and encompass many other rules already inside of the motd.

-NITRP (No intent to RP/No Interest to RP)  -- This is a roleplay server, if your intention is not to play correctly, and instead to ruin other times, or simply to not play the server as it's intended. You shouldn't be on the server taking away from the people that do want this experience. I'll chalk this one up to using common sense.


-'Mingeing' -- Very similar to the above statement, people playing the game with their intent being something other than roleplaying. This term is used to describe intentionally disruptive players who are ruining others time. If someone get's a warning or ban for this reason, they know what they were doing wrong, and often time the staff member explains that to them.


-FailRP -- FailRP is faster to type in a warn/ban reason then the whole specific events that lead up to the event. Again, this is another one where in the sit, the play will understand how the violated their roleplay rules, as the staff member would have discussed the events that lead up to the warning, and the player will know what and how what they did was wrong. For example, hobo has a gun. "Hey man, you can't have a gun as a hobo". --!warn player failrp--   The player understands how the violated the rules and roleplay objective of their class. 


-Staff Disrespect (I haven't seen this, but I have seen similar under the guise of 'Racism and Homophobia') We don't typically ban people for staff disrespect. We do however ask in the motd to "Be respectful to all other players." We also specifically state "The repeated use of racial, homophobic, or sexist slurs in-game will result in a reprimand." So I'm not sure what part of this your are confused about?

As far as life advice goes, and being upset that people don't want to take time out of their day to argue with you or anything like that. There is likely a reason. In your own words, you described yourself as being a pain in the ass, giving people headaches, and even driving people to the point where they want to blow their brains out. If you decide to treat someone poorly anywhere in life, you probably aren't going to get the best possible experience in return. Who would want to willingly take time out of their day to help someone who is being an asshole? If you're obnoxious to the mcdonalds worker, you're getting the cold fries. If you piss of the janitor, he's not going to go out of his way to make your officer cleaner. If you're an asshole to the IT department you're laptop is going to be the last one to be upgraded. Piss of the nurse, and they might have to dig to find that vein. There are definitely some perks to acting like a reputable human being when interacting with the people who are trying to help you. If you want people to take time out from role playing, or even other games or activities outside of garry's mod. I would start by possibly treating them with respect, and not trying to make their life a living hell. 

Lastly, I understand your concern that staff members can "Fill in the blanks of the motd" and use their judgement to enforce rule specifically not added to the motd." Like I earlier mentioned, often times if a staff member is enforcing a rule not mentioned in the motd specifically, they will explain it to the player first, give them a verbal, or a kind reminder, and go from there.

Of course staff members aren't perfect. If you feel as if a staff member is abusing this rule, or using it inappropriately, we provide various ways to combat this. One of this being the report a staff member section, the second being the ban appeals section. If you feel a staff member went to far, or enforced rules unfairly, these are the places to dispute these issues.

Please feel free to reply to this thread if I was unclear or missed anything.

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Hi! You were banned for explicitly not following the MOTD and going directly against what the staff team has said, you and a plethora of other users continued to make a inaccessible rooftop accessible through various means, including a slide that was placed nearby, or a tower that was next to it, or jumping from one roof to the next, thus meaning prop minge and NITRP, as the only role/job that has acces in a rp scenario to roofs similar to those are batman, and active duty staff. I refuse to go i to detail on names as it was a mass issue server wide almost, as well as the convoy mute, theres more behind it than everyone is willing to look at, or have overlooked, the mute was due to a lengthy conversation between the server against me and them saying a plethora of items to me, about me, and just overall harassment nonetheless.

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45 minutes ago, Liam R. 1237 said:

Hi! You were banned for explicitly not following the MOTD and going directly against what the staff team has said, you and a plethora of other users continued to make a inaccessible rooftop accessible through various means, including a slide that was placed nearby, or a tower that was next to it, or jumping from one roof to the next, thus meaning prop minge and NITRP, as the only role/job that has acces in a rp scenario to roofs similar to those are batman, and active duty staff. I refuse to go i to detail on names as it was a mass issue server wide almost, as well as the convoy mute, theres more behind it than everyone is willing to look at, or have overlooked, the mute was due to a lengthy conversation between the server against me and them saying a plethora of items to me, about me, and just overall harassment nonetheless.

I joined the server during this time because staff had questions about the roof tops, and yes everything you are saying is correct.

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This belongs in appeals or staff reports, not suggestions and ideas. You aren't really suggesting anything, just complaining about how you were treated.

I don't see anything that staff did wrong. You were clearly asking for trouble, and you worded this all professionally as if you want to make a scene (trust me- this is far from a professional and mature way to deal with this). NITRP and minging are indeed up to staff discretion, but if it is clear that you are intentionally being a nuisance, you absolutely deserved that ban, and that reason for the ban.

FailRP and staff disrespect are also not "hidden rules". FailRP is simply a label for a degree of rulebreak. For instance it is fail RP to randomly untaze people. And staff disrespect isn't a separate thing, player disrespect isn't allowed in general, it's in the general rules. Staff are players, so, yeah.

I have at least hundreds of hours on the server and I don't have problems with stuff being up to staff discretion. If you actually care about the server and its rules you don't get into trouble often. Clearly you failed to do this.

 

Edited by Setro
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